Jacob Austin (00:00:17) - Hi all. Jacob Austin here, owner of QS.Zone. And welcome to episode 29 of The Subcontractors Blueprint, the show where subcontractors will learn how to ensure profitability, improve cash flow and grow their business. Today's episode is number 29, and today I've been joined by an industry expert and the voice of construction, Mike Sterling. Mike's had a long career in construction, and he has an incredible story, which he shares with us in today's episode. He also gives his wise words on some of the challenges that the industry is currently dealing with. Mike's worked as a site manager for many years, and he has an incredible passion for helping people, which you can hear in his voice throughout the interview. And do reach out to Mike on LinkedIn and on his website's construction buddies and Bentley Mental Health. I hope you enjoy the interview.
Mike Turlin (00:01:08) - So I've been in the industry all my life. Uh, even before I left school, I was in demolition and stuff like that before I even left school, because the parents had their own demolition company.
Mike Turlin (00:01:19) - And then from there onwards, I loved the way that obviously the buildings were built. So that's what got me into construction. And then obviously I started off as a laborer in in groundworks. First company I went to, I said, I want to be a manager within two years. And they said, no can take longer. But I went for a different company. And then I started doing the groundworks, doing all the foundations, digging them by hand myself. Didn't have many machines around at that time. Obviously that we extensions was mainly hand dug. And then I started doing all the brickwork up to DPC and then obviously then started doing bricklaying, and then I ended up being a bricklayer foreman. And then one of the sites I was on, they said, how do you fancy running the site? And there was a Crest Home site, and I then became a site manager, and then I went to college and done some courses on brickwork and things like that, and then then a manager ever since.
Mike Turlin (00:02:11) - Since then I've been a site manager, senior site manager, project manager, contracts manager over the last few years. And then in 2009, I looked at ways to end my life because of the stress I was under at the time. Not work related because work I've never found, as has been that stressful, that it would actually want me to in my life. It was actually because my marriage was failing and my best friend died, my mum died, and then I was being arrested several times a week. And then being arrested at my mom's funeral was like the trigger point that led me to, I felt was, no one's going to miss me if I'm going to be here, if I'm not here sort of thing. So and I didn't feel there was anyone to talk to because it wasn't sort of loads of places to help there is now. So I felt like, well, I needed, I didn't, there's no point being there. So I gave everything I owned away, everything I mean everything the flash cars, sports, sports cars, everything like that, flash watches, everything like that going away because I thought, I know and when I failed several times, it was like, well, I'm disappointed that I failed.
Mike Turlin (00:03:17) - Because I felt sorry. I didn't want to be here and there was no point being there. Even family. I felt there was too close. I didn't really feel I had an issue even though I tried it in my life. So it's all a case of just trying to get it over with. And just in my life. And I didn't want to jump in front of a train or anything like that, because that affected so many people. So it was all planned what I how I was going to end my life. I didn't want to jump off a bridge because that affected the train driver and, and maybe all the people on there. And, uh, yes.
Jacob Austin (00:03:48) - To everybody else that that would.
Mike Turlin (00:03:50) - Witness loads of people cleaning up the body parts afterwards. So there was lots of thoughts went into it even like to medication. It was crunching up the medication so it was easier for me to take. But there was loads of things that I looked at. And then obviously then it was going more drastic things than that to end my life.
Mike Turlin (00:04:06) - But that failed. And when I woke up, I quite surprised that I woke up because I didn't want to. So that's why since then, in 2009, I found that having a hobby helped me because that get my got my mind focus on something positive rather than sitting in an empty apartment, making up all these stories in my head and thinking they were real. But didn't solve this. It didn't solve my problem. Since then, I went in a mental home. But they didn't help at all. They was just more interesting just dosing you up with more medication and then making walk round like a zombie in there and standing there and make you, yeah, making sure you actually took the medication but never actually helped me at all. Not not in any little bit. There was more about this life that you had. It's almost like you was on a time limit to get out again since then. I said to the psychiatrist, what's the point being here? Because you're not actually helped me. No one's talking to me or not.
Mike Turlin (00:05:00) - Keep asking for someone to talk to me. But no one did. So they signed me out. And then I found out afterwards that they're actually got a budget. So obviously I'm actually allowed to spend. And then after that they're actually time, sort of time to get rid of you. So unless you're really severe case, but obviously otherwise they want to try to get you in and out because their budget obviously a certain amount.
Jacob Austin (00:05:20) - So.
Mike Turlin (00:05:21) - All right. But then those sort.
Jacob Austin (00:05:23) - Of like a cost based issue rather than what's right for the people.
Mike Turlin (00:05:28) - Yeah. So that's why I sort of do what I do now. And that's why I started Bentley Mental Health. Yeah. After, um, getting the tax rebate in 2019, I got a massive tax rebate. Then actually it was enough to buy a cheap car. I would add cars anyway, or flush cars because I was back in and earning good money. And obviously the industry is is well known for paying good wages and you can earn 78,000.
Mike Turlin (00:05:55) - Some of my company I was working for, the bonus was like 90,000 things like that. So you can soon earn some good money if you get in with the right company. And that's what I found. And then I was already I had a nice CLS 500 or 6, sorry SL, I had a nice SL 500 at the time, and then I got this massive tax rebate and I saw Bentley on eBay and I said to the owner of the Bentley, I said, if you can deliver it tomorrow, I'll have it. And he did. He I delivered it straight away because obviously he knew he was going to have a good sale. But then today the Bentley was only 23,000. It was actually cheaper than my Nissan Juke, my customised Nissan Juke. I had obviously, but when people see you driving around the Bentley, it obviously they obviously get the impression like you're rich or whether you own your own company or whatever. But it wasn't the case. I didn't buy it for the flashiness. I suppose it was.
Mike Turlin (00:06:45) - It was buying it, like to say, I've done okay, I've turned my life around and life is good now. It was never it's never about driving around flash. But now I've had the car customised. It's white and gold and it is blingy gold. So now it is flash, but it's for attention, purely for attention. Not to show off that I've got loads of money because I don't. It's all about raising awareness for mental health, and the car goes to so many shows where I have a banner that says all about my story, where I try to own my life and, well, what you don't see for me, apart from a flash car, is how you can turn your life around and how good it is to talk to people. Talk to a stranger. Yeah, talk to anyone. It may not solve the issue, but it takes a lot of weight off your mind that obviously you're going through. So that obviously helps. And then surprising that every event I go to, I get people, literally hundreds of people open up about their mental health issues after they've heard my story.
Mike Turlin (00:07:44) - I get so many emails every day about people that are suffering and say, thank you for my story and how much obviously that's helped them. And even people on LinkedIn are saying, like my story and my post and helps them keep going because they know there's someone fighting their corner. But that's what it's all about. It's all about having some voice out there in the industry. And that's why I've got the voice. I cast myself now as the voice of construction. Yeah, now I saw Mates Are Us Now, which is the voice of the people. But it's all about, say, what we can do to not. It's not always about slagging the industry off, which I am at the moment a certain amount with the city B, because I think that's workable. What they're doing at the moment for the workers and trying to get new people in the industry. Yeah. Um, but with the city B, I've emailed the government, I've emailed the education departments or the politicians that's related to that.
Mike Turlin (00:08:42) - Yeah, but no one and the chairman's and everything else, but no one seems to bother responding.
Jacob Austin (00:08:47) - So the changes that are happening, who do you see that affecting the most in terms of the.
Mike Turlin (00:08:53) - Older workers that have been in the industry for lots of years, people that are not academically. Achievable achieved to. But there's so many people. It's going to affect a lot of younger people as well, because that means a lot of people joined the industry years ago when I was young, because obviously they weren't that great at school and I was never great school. I used the bank of school just so go watch police five years ago when I was maybe 40, 50 or 60 years ago or whatever, I used to just bunk off school, go and sign in, and then the runner at the school gates and that's it. So I got registered that I was there because life was me was more important than school. But obviously we need an education. And obviously I've been to college since then and learnt quite a lot from college, but it's obviously going to affect a lot of the older, say the older generation.
Jacob Austin (00:09:40) - Yeah. So this is around sort of labour on site, having to have a basically an NVQ qualification isn't it, to obtain. That's right. The CSCs card and their permission to be on site in effect. Yeah. Yeah, I see that as there are a lot of people out there who have obviously got a wealth of experience and they've got time tested and proven skills in what they're doing. They don't necessarily have the piece of paper to back it up, but what they do have is reams of evidence in physical form of, I've been doing this for 20 years, 30 years or more. Yeah, yeah. And taking that away from people is I mean, that's their livelihood isn't it? In fact. Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:10:23) - Yeah. Well it's the education. They've actually the knowledge they've gained over those years as well. And it's something like 50,000 people are going to lose next year workers because of this NVQ thing. It's like now if you want to be a site manager, you have to do the the the managers professional test.
Mike Turlin (00:10:41) - You have to do the CSCs five day course, and now you have to do an NVQ as well. And you think, why do we have to do so much? And it's like, what do you ever gain by having an NVQ? It's almost I owe a greater knowledge of what the industry is all about and all that. But. It's nothingness, really. It's it's it's just. Yeah, it's just another piece of paper that costs you 15, £1,800 or whatever to pass it. And you think, do you ever need that qualification? No. Is it going to make you any better in the industry? No. It's it actually kind of. Does anyone going to ask to see it in your lifetime? No. So what is the point? Losing all these workers experienced workers because of it. People are actually going now. I made a phone call to a CITV training company and spoke to them about. I recently failed the test like nine times the managers of professionals, even though I studied all their online pre courses, uh, pre examination, checked the questions several times and kept doing that and doing that and got the book to go through it.
Mike Turlin (00:11:46) - And I still failed nine times, but I spoke to it. And then eventually on the 10th time I actually passed. And then I spoke to a company in the UK and asked them about. Obviously, I've heard that they actually do dodgy tickets and they said, well, I didn't say to them, well you do dodgy ticket, I've got given the phone number and said like, I understand, obviously I need to read, I need to do my test. And they said, that's fine, no, you need to come in for the test because it's sort of on camera, he said. But obviously we'll give you the answers if it's £400 and then and you think, I've just done this nine times or ten times, if I was like, really desperate, you think that's something you think all the times you lose off work, keep doing all those 9 or 10 tests. When do you actually think, well, I've lost all this money now, £300 a day every time or whatever you've just lost.
Mike Turlin (00:12:34) - So going on doing these courses, then it soon mounts up and you think, well, I could pay £400 and now I've got to pass first time.
Jacob Austin (00:12:41) - And you'd be better off than if you had to sit it twice even, wouldn't you?
Mike Turlin (00:12:45) - But you're guaranteed, obviously you pass because they give you the answers. So it means obviously, if that's one company in the UK that I spoke to, how many others are actually doing it? And I'm not saying there's obviously all of them do it, but obviously ITB actually doing proper checks. So I know if I was in the city, B I'd be asking how many people pass at that centre first time and do they live more than 35 miles away? So it's just roughly or even 30 miles away because it means that person's travelled that distance when, you know, obviously within the area you live where I live in Brighton, Stoke, there's.
Jacob Austin (00:13:21) - Probably 15.
Mike Turlin (00:13:22) - Miles, there's probably about over five centres you can go to. So people are travelling 30 or 35 miles or so or 40 miles away, then obviously there's something not right and I'd be checking to see how many times those people have actually passed before or failed before at other centres.
Mike Turlin (00:13:37) - Why did they pass it? That one that's actually 35 miles away and they didn't pass all the local ones. So I'd be asking questions and someone needs to do more checks on that and actually check on the centres. And as I say, I'm not saying all senators are like that, but there's obviously not that much control, even though they've got all these security cameras. And you have to when you go there, they check behind your ears, you check your polish, check your phone. Worse than trying to get into a bank safe.
Jacob Austin (00:14:03) - Yes.
Jacob Austin (00:14:05) - I recall doing that a couple of years ago. Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:14:08) - But we need to start helping the workers, the ones that's obviously struggling in the industry. They say that's why lots of us get into industry, because we didn't need the qualification. But we could still become site managers, project managers, owners of companies. And you think why did obviously like years ago, it used to be all Irish people that came into the industry and then they realised obviously they were being scammed and that obviously they can start their own construction companies and stuff like that and do it themselves, even though they weren't that clever with their maths and everything else.
Mike Turlin (00:14:40) - And they and now there's some of the biggest companies in the UK that are run by Irish guys. Yeah. And obviously they wouldn't obviously that clever at the time, but obviously they thought hang on, something not right.
Jacob Austin (00:14:50) - Here. So enough about them didn't they.
Mike Turlin (00:14:52) - Yeah. And then obviously there was all the other foreign labour. And then obviously then they started up their own companies. And that's why we've got a lot of foreign companies now. And obviously it's just we just in the UK, we just use people wherever we can get the lowest rates up until the Brexit or whatever it was obviously. And then we use that, that country as much as we can. And so they realise obviously we're. So over getting cheap labour and making loads of money out of it. And then they cut them off and I think, hang on, something not right here. What, why why are we not doing ourselves so. Outside the industry. That's why I'm passionate now about getting wellbeing, better, wellbeing in construction, seeing what we can do to actually mentor the people, get into colleges and schools and show how great the industry can be.
Mike Turlin (00:15:42) - I'm not saying it's great at the moment because it's not, but we are desperate for people.
Jacob Austin (00:15:46) - I think that's a key area where we could really do better as an industry as a whole, in selling the benefits of being in construction and what the the good times that you can have on site and the camaraderie that you have of working alongside other people and, you know, working in your gang, your team for your subcontractor and sort of bringing that to school children and people of a younger age so that they can see that actually, this is a fun place to work. It's a good career to have. You'll earn some good money at it. And you know, you can you can enjoy your job. You get the professional pride of delivering something, what it looks like when you're finished and you're walking away. And you'll always have that. And I know it happens for me. And I've a background as a quantity, so I always drive past jobs that I've had some involvement. And again, that's my job.
Jacob Austin (00:16:40) - And you know, tradespeople must have the same, you know, pride in. I put the roof on there or. Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:16:48) - Yeah. Well it's amazing feeling when you know you've built something from the ground. Just the greenfield right through to completion. And you see the person's face when they move in and you think and just. And you make them feel really welcome and you know that they're going to go in there and they're going to love the house. And it's a great feeling that obviously you you've built that from whatever. And and obviously the, the lot of the trades that obviously put the quality into it. But obviously there's some obviously not so great guys out there, but we need to educate them more and obviously just show them that we need to stop cutting corners on quality and stop cutting corners on safety, because there's a lot of people say that that based on social media, how great they are. And then you look at the photographs and you say.
Jacob Austin (00:17:30) - You run that online.
Mike Turlin (00:17:33) - Or whatever from there, and they say, yeah, well, now we look after, we make sure we do everything correct.
Mike Turlin (00:17:37) - I said, but your photos don't sell that. There's a high risk someone could fall off the edge of that and impale themselves on the scaffold tube. So you're not actually doing what you're saying. You're actually just boasting about how great you're doing, but you're not actually doing that great. You're not actually looking up the guy's welfare and safety. So we need to educate the companies as well. I know obviously a lot of it comes down to pressure. Time scales sales. If they sell a property or whatever, then obviously the pressure goes on even more. But I say if we go back to the school thing, I, I want to sort of help educate people in schools and colleges to say and resolve mental health issues before they get to mental health issues. Show them obviously a good talk. Then you can turn your life around, because that's what I've done. And obviously a lot of the other campaigners that's obviously on LinkedIn are the same. They've actually suffered their own issues, and that's why they do what they do now.
Mike Turlin (00:18:30) - And obviously a lot of the suicide prevention people, it's on LinkedIn and they all are people that's actually lost family members and stuff like that. And when they say a lot of people say, well, I didn't see the signs and symptoms, a lot of times there's not. Obviously, if you go on a course, you can suicide awareness course or whatever you're doing, then obviously some stuff. But yeah, in the day you still don't see, you don't. People don't usually go around shouting and screaming, I'm going to end my life tomorrow. We just do it. And obviously lucky for some of us, now we fail. And that's why we do what we do. But others, I say go around, scream and shout, but they're after attention.
Jacob Austin (00:19:08) - Sorry to pry, but in terms of what got you to the place that you are now, what was the biggest turning point for you? What was the biggest single it? Could you pinpoint a single thing that you did that changed your mindset or that that helped you, um, on the road to start the road to recovery, if you like?
Mike Turlin (00:19:27) - It was someone told me that it wasn't my time to die, and then that's what it's my turning point.
Mike Turlin (00:19:33) - And that was my dead mother actually visited me. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I was laying in my garden and my dead mother and my dead brother was walking down a garden towards me who had just buried a few weeks before. She told me it wasn't my time to die. So that was my turning point. And then after that it was like, well, okay, I need to start turning my life around because obviously I'm not. I'm here for a reason and that's why I do what I do now. Yes.
Jacob Austin (00:20:04) - All right. See, that's made you a little emotional there.
Mike Turlin (00:20:07) - And so that's why I do what I do now. And that's why I, I spent I was spending 50% of my wages each month. I've used £86,000 of my savings trying to save other people, not to get to the position that I was in. And that's why I even do Christmas lights now. I spent about £7,000 on Christmas lights, which I start going up this week just to make people smile and feel good over the Christmas period.
Mike Turlin (00:20:33) - Because we know our depressing Christmas can be for lots of people, with all the stresses and everything else that they're going through.
Jacob Austin (00:20:39) - It's very funny time of year because it's it seems to be, I don't know whether it is the amount of darkness or the days are so short and people don't get the same sort of benefits of being outside and outdoors, and they perhaps avoid it because of the cold and see those health benefits. And there might be something in that, but there seems to be a lot of sort of further illness. And you see a lot of sadly, deaths occur in and around sort of December, January and those moments.
Mike Turlin (00:21:11) - In time, isn't it? Yeah. You get up in the mornings and the first thing you see is still dark outside. It's ice and snow or whatever pouring with rain outside. And you think, oh God, I really want to go in today. And then you come home being at hard work all day, and you come home to your family and it's dark outside.
Mike Turlin (00:21:28) - So it's just it's just a horrible feeling getting up in the mornings, going to work in the dark and coming home in the dark.
Jacob Austin (00:21:36) - Yeah, certainly. Yeah. And barely seeing the sunshine. Unless you've been lucky enough to work outside, I guess. Yeah, but.
Mike Turlin (00:21:45) - Then you're inside. Outside in all the cold weather, when the ice and ice and all that starts to come. Yeah. And you think, God, what the hell am I doing? Why am I working in these conditions? And that's why in the industry, we need to see what we can do to help the workers make their canteen warm. Actually, just how many offices do you go? And they're not even friendly in the office. When you look at the the the huge. There's a storage room for lots of sites. The women's toilets are actually used as a storeroom for all the PPE stuff or whatever, toilet chemicals and that usually stored in a lady's toilet. We need to actually make sure they're actually used as a ladies toilet.
Mike Turlin (00:22:23) - When the ladies come to use the toilets, you have to move loads of stuff out of the way to make it good. So we need to make sure all sites are actually like that, but we're not. That's a trouble.
Jacob Austin (00:22:32) - Yeah, yeah. So in terms of. Say people out there that might be in a bad place, where can they turn to at the moment? What are their roles?
Mike Turlin (00:22:44) - There's lots of groups, lots of groups out there. The trouble is, obviously a lot of the industry is sort of the you get, uh, 4 or 5 sessions. Um, and then after that you're dumped. And that's obviously some of the big organisations. And then like a lot of times when I go and and talk to people at event and they say to me, Mike, it's great that we, um, talk and everyone talks, but who do we turn to after that? Um, I'm looking at obviously at the moment, obviously like trying to get a page, um, together on my website, uh, to actually list all the three, um, organisations out there.
Mike Turlin (00:23:21) - Um, and obviously there is quite a few, um, but it's finding them and actually getting them all on some sort of, uh, database sort of thing so people can sort of say, okay, ah, I look on that Mike's website because I know he's got a list of all the free stuff on there, and that's what we need, because I say a lot of the people out there are offering counselling and stuff like that. You have to pay or you get them for free. So for about five sessions or six sessions, uh, and then after that you're dumped in and say, well, we can't do anything else. And the amount of people I've spoken to over the last few years that I've said, but we've got no one we don't know. And then I talked to them about obviously what I can do. Obviously I'm not a travel counsellor. All I'm doing is obviously like listening to their issues and so on, a signposting to help that they need, because I see a lot of times just hearing my story or whatever, or just being an ear for them to listen to.
Mike Turlin (00:24:10) - That's what a lot of people need. And I never say that solves every issue because it doesn't. It never solved mine. A hobby helped mine, but again, that didn't solve my issues. I still got bipolar and it still affects me most days. But I don't take medication because that's my personal choice. Because I found the medication that I was on at the time didn't help me, or so I was walking around like a zombie and I say, I went to doctors and said I'm still not well. And he gave me stronger medication, which made it even worse. And I'm not saying that was a cause for me to try to end my life, but it definitely didn't help. That's why I don't take the medication now. I tried to live with the issue and just get over it as much as I can and know when. Obviously if I have a drink, which I don't drink hardly at all. Now I don't drink, really. I never got hammered all the time when I was going on the medication, but the mix and medication alcohol didn't help.
Mike Turlin (00:25:03) - Um, so. But it's all about to say about not not suffering in silence, which a lot of us do. We all think we hide behind this mask thinking that we're invincible or whatever, but we're not. And that's why I say a car shows when I go there with my flesh Bentley and the little teddies and stuff like that. The kids come over and, um, look at the toys and the parents read the story, and then I cry their eyes out. I had a family a few weeks ago. One grandmother came and read my story, cried her eyes out, went home, and actually brought a whole family to the car event. And then they was all crying their eyes out. But it helped them because obviously it showed. Obviously it's good to talk.
Jacob Austin (00:25:45) - Starting conversation. Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the things is that we all need to talk to each other more because, you know, human contact is is what one of the things that we all need to to stay level, to understand each other, to feel like somebody listens and cares about your story and what's happening with you.
Jacob Austin (00:26:06) - And that's one of the things, I suppose it can be isolating, working in construction, because you might be working in a single plot or a single area, and that's you and you go to work. You don't see anybody on the way. And there's limited interactions with people throughout the day.
Mike Turlin (00:26:26) - Because obviously the obviously you have to wait for trades to turn up. So you may be like when it comes to groundwork stage, the groundwork may have done their bit and you're waiting for the bricklayers. Um, so you could be waiting. It just sat on the site. Manager could be just sat there on his own for a while. And I think it's obviously not great. You think, well, you can't go home because just in case. Delivery, you turn up. But the job is obviously like I tried. I've done a post recently about we should all, like, be trying to help the workers a bit more with how far they work away from home. I was speaking to a director of a company a while ago, just had recently had a breakdown because he was saying, I think you've lived somewhere up near Manchester, the other side of Manchester or something.
Mike Turlin (00:27:05) - And he was being sent down to Croydon.
Jacob Austin (00:27:08) - And.
Mike Turlin (00:27:08) - I was like 400 miles away or something like that from his family. And for I think it's for a return trip or whatever, but it was like it was such a distance and he was doing that for over a year. I think it was like 18 months or something. I've done that for, and that meant every weekend he'd go home, but then back to work, obviously every every week living in a hotel room.
Jacob Austin (00:27:28) - And he's like, yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:27:29) - And he said it was just didn't feel safe enough to go out of a night time. So eating his room every night because of the area. I know that has a toll on everyone. We shouldn't be doing that to our workers. We should be sort of like saying, okay, it's within 45 minutes at home. You work. And companies should actually only be able to. We should actually have the whole thing in the industry where you can't work 45 minutes away from the office or something like that, because that we don't take on projects more than 45 minutes away from you unless you actually go to local labor or local guys to do the job, because then that way, we're not got anyone traveling more than 45 minutes away from their home.
Mike Turlin (00:28:05) - And then that way we know we're actually not putting too much pressure on people.
Jacob Austin (00:28:10) - There are certain procurement rules at the moment that that insist on on local labor, and it's always something that I've really bought into myself and I've been involved in those jobs because as well as you've got the people that are working around there and they're they're inputting to their society and the buildings that they might see and deal with on a on a daily basis. You've got all of the investment that is sort of embodied in that building. And the money that say the government is, is spending on a school should go to the the local economy, in effect. And by procuring people that are local to the site, you've got all of that economic benefit that stays within that area, if you like. And then yeah, not to mention you're reducing people's travelling time. You're reducing perhaps time or chance to have accidents on long commutes and people's time sitting in the car and not doing anything sort of sociable. And the benefits are a massive just by.
Jacob Austin (00:29:19) - Yeah, keeping keeping local, keeping local tradespeople.
Mike Turlin (00:29:23) - Well also if you're traveling a long distance, you have a lot of times you have to leave even earlier to miss the the, the mad rush of traffic and getting stuck in traffic. So it means you could end up. You probably don't start after start to 8:00 your time. Don't. You're there at 7:00 because you need to get there earlier to miss the traffic. Otherwise you ain't going to get there till 9:00 or half nine. So it's a it's yes it's a non.
Jacob Austin (00:29:47) - Kind of job. So yeah it seems to be particularly any city centre involvement. Yeah. If you don't get there early you don't get there.
Mike Turlin (00:29:56) - And obviously it takes the toll on the workers because you the workers are shattered before they even get there. After all that driving you think. But we should be looking at what way we can say we can improve it all. But I say that this. There's so much we need to do. We need to do more education onsite, help the workers to get better training, um, mentor them a bit from the older, knowledgeable people that we got that we're going to lose next year, get some of the experience, even take them back on as something else, as a consultant or something like that, something that we can actually still keep them, but they don't need to have an NVQ for it.
Mike Turlin (00:30:32) - So they can actually just go there and visit and actually do talks or something, because then they're not actually out on site. Try to sort of utilise what we've got and say there's a lot of good managers, there's a lot of obviously bad managers that probably need to sort of leave the industry, which there is. But the more we can do to educate and help support. I've done a post today and said about one of my posts today was all about talk to the younger generation and see what they like about the industry. See what they dislike, but ask their opinion because we may actually learn something from them because it's all negative. With younger generation, we all think, oh yeah, they know nothing or whatever, and they knew in the industry, but they they may actually help improve the industry. We don't know. I don't know, but I'm just I'd like to think that they if we can make their life easier not saying babysitting them because I think sometimes obviously we're doing too much of that.
Mike Turlin (00:31:25) - But I think the more we can actually talk to them and see what way we can stop them from thinking, we've got to rush the job to get to the pub. Yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:31:34) - There is some of that, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, there's this there's.
Mike Turlin (00:31:37) - Quite a lot of it. Um, I was speaking to a manager that week and he said if I would have done a alcohol test on my side, I have no one on site. And he said to me, I said to him, but what do you do about it? He said, well, the trouble is, if you actually say, if you've done an alcohol test, you have no workers. But it's obviously his job at risk. If something happens and it's because one goes to prison, which is a horrible situation for a manager to be put in, he said. But because of the location in the UK, everyone comes there and they're actually hammered and they go home. Still hammered.
Jacob Austin (00:32:09) - Goodness me.
Mike Turlin (00:32:10) - Yeah, which is all completely wrong.
Mike Turlin (00:32:12) - So the other thing is obviously we need we need to look at is obviously bullying on site. This is obviously still going on. I get so many emails all the time about bullying and would I name and shame the company and all that sort of stuff? I'd love to, but obviously I have to be careful what I do. But obviously I said to like, well, I'm the tools on the tools. I said to them a while ago, obviously about some of the videos on Facebook. That obviously, even though the great entertainment and obviously the they can be sort of funny and things like that, but it's.
Jacob Austin (00:32:43) - Some of these things are picking on the The Apprentice or whatnot. Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:32:47) - And obviously being swung round with the machine. And I said to them the other week, I said to the boss on the tools, I said, just concerned obviously, that some of the videos you got on videos you show on there are really dangerous and people were actually taking risk swinging people around on the bucket with the chain, and one of them actually broke their arm and things like that.
Mike Turlin (00:33:07) - And I say that it's, it's it's obviously to get money. That's what they do it. The people do it because obviously you can get fame on on YouTube or whatever on Facebook. I said, but what happens when someone dies because of trying to make some money doing things? I said there should be more control from yourselves of what you're actually showing on Facebook, because yes, a lot of it is funny and stuff like that, but a lot of it is dangerous as well. We need to show the injury, not dangerous that we don't. Well, we know the industry is dangerous, sorry, we know the industry, but we don't need to actually take risk to actually make money and things like that. We need to.
Jacob Austin (00:33:42) - Show sort of a self perpetuating issue, isn't it? Because if you're if you're there and you're posting these kind of videos and people are liking them and it sort of gets a bit of attention, then by promoting that, you're promoting that, actually if you do something unsafe, then you can earn some money from it and you can you can use that for your own benefit when there's plenty of ways, you just need a bit of different imagination to to create something that can be amusing.
Mike Turlin (00:34:10) - But that's why I spoke to them, and they actually took a load of the videos down, and they actually now monitor it a lot more. The CEO actually said, do you actually personally monitor it more? Obviously he's there to make money as well, which obviously, yes, that's what the idea of on the tools is on their videos is to make money. And obviously they do some great stuff for suicide prevention and mental health because I've done some videos with them myself. So I know obviously what they do, which is great job. But I say some of the videos on there, it needs a bit more monitoring and that's what I said to them. They need to do it and which they have been doing. I sort of like say they have been doing very well. Not saying they're not creeping back up again. Just look at that. Some of them are still could be a bit more monitoring done on them, but I'll say they are there to make money. But it shouldn't be about making money for other people's misfortunes.
Jacob Austin (00:34:56) - Absolutely. Yeah. But yeah, ultimately promoting things that that could do people harm couldn't it?
Mike Turlin (00:35:03) - But that's right, they are changing things and they are monitoring, but they probably just need a bit more scrutinizing what they're doing at the moment. But I say the industry itself, I love it. So I've been in it for 50 years now. Yeah, it is a great industry and it's well paid, but we need to talk to the younger generation and see what we can do to improve the industry. The sit be, I say is is my biggest bugbear at the moment because that is causing so much stress. And when you look at the over 95, I think it's about 95% now, negative feedback and you think, how can you company.
Jacob Austin (00:35:37) - Does that not signpost to you that there's a problem?
Mike Turlin (00:35:40) - Well that's right, because.
Jacob Austin (00:35:41) - It's not just.
Mike Turlin (00:35:43) - Yeah, because 90% of it is actually people saying if I could leave lower than the one, I would leave lower than the one, but they can't.
Mike Turlin (00:35:51) - Um, so they have to leave some sort of feedback. So it'd be even less than, it'd be less than 95. They've only got something like I think it's 4%, which is actually a five star. The rest goes down into. Mainly it was 90%. I say is is 0 or 1. But that's why we need to start looking. And that's why I keep trying to sort of drum the drum at the moment. Yeah, banging the drum to sort of get things changing. But so when no one wants to talk to me about what they can do to improve the industry, and that's what we do. Uh, there's 50 questions, um, to their exams. But some of those questions have actually got you got to give three answers.
Jacob Austin (00:36:30) - Answers aren't they?
Mike Turlin (00:36:31) - Well, no, they're actually three answers.
Jacob Austin (00:36:33) - Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:36:34) - Some of them you actually have to answer give three answers per question. Yeah. So that's actually more than 50 answers you have to give. It's like over 60 or 62 answers you have to give to actually get a pass.
Mike Turlin (00:36:45) - And you think it's 90% pass. You have to get. And that pass rate is ridiculous. 90%. Not even like the top training things give. You have to have 90% pass, right? But I say the questions are misleading. Um, which is not good because some of them are sort of the questions are so sort of like close to each other and you think, oh, it could be that. And you can keep reading. But the time limit, you got 45 minutes to answer 55, 50 questions. Yes. So time is struggling. If you're struggling with your academic abilities, then it's even harder.
Jacob Austin (00:37:20) - Um, certainly.
Mike Turlin (00:37:21) - You can see why most people fail it.
Jacob Austin (00:37:23) - Yeah. I mean, some of these things, it's about safety, isn't it? The the CSCs certification and sort of knowing and understanding the safety requirements. It doesn't take necessarily reading or writing, does it? It's not about your your knowledge and attitude. So it's whether is that really the most appropriate way of assessing that somebody is competent and safe by this online test.
Mike Turlin (00:37:51) - No, no it's not. No. Obviously a lot of the training could be done on site and then pass that way. Um.
Jacob Austin (00:37:58) - Yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:37:59) - And assessments as well could be could be done on site and.
Mike Turlin (00:38:04) - Yeah, but we need to say we need to help the guys a bit more because. So this is not the way we should be doing doing the industry. You can see why most people fail. And I don't know whether it's just the money making scheme, but the gnvq thing that's coming out that is just wrecking the industry. And we should and I say, I've emailed everyone you can think of from the government to education department about we need to look at this because this is not the way we should be doing things in the future. We should be helping workers in the industry.
Jacob Austin (00:38:32) - The issue of there's a shortage of labour, is it not? And yeah, by taking away a significant chunk of that, thousands of workers. Yeah. You're only making the problem worse.
Mike Turlin (00:38:43) - Well the government's actually looking at it at the moment with they're doing an investigation with the sit by at the moment.
Mike Turlin (00:38:48) - And obviously they're going to come back with their findings by the end of this year because obviously there is concerns even from the government. And obviously there is they have got people looking into it and I've emailed all those people. But so it's the same again at the moment. No one seems to want to talk to me. I don't know why. It's probably because I'm a nobody in the industry. Um, but at the end of the day, you all have to start with one one person trying to make a change. Without that one person, nothing will ever change in industry. And I care about our workers because I'm one of them sort of things that yeah, want to make positive change in the industry. Not it's not all about slating things off, which I see I do a certain amount because sometimes you need to kick these companies and whatever, but we need to show how great the industry is and what we can do to make it a great place and make the well being on site. Great.
Mike Turlin (00:39:37) - So we're not open. Yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:39:39) - Yeah. And that will encourage more people into the industry won't it?
Mike Turlin (00:39:44) - Yeah. Because even one of my sites, I had monthly barbecues, uh, I had bicycles from to go to a local shops. I had basketball there because a lot of the guys play for rent and basketball team, and I've done so much for my relaxation room or paid for my own money. I spent £4,000 of my own personal money on that site, and everyone loved working there. Even one of a wall tiler emailed me and said, Mike, I heard over coming back to your site, it's like fireworks going off because I'm so excited about coming back to your site and we end up months ahead of program. And obviously it showed by looking after the well being. I never had to chase subcontractors to actually work on my site because they was always there. And I get phone calls saying, why do you want more bricklayers? You want more carpenters coming? Because everyone loved working there.
Jacob Austin (00:40:29) - They want to be part of it.
Mike Turlin (00:40:31) - And because I say I was so far ahead of program and I was up for every award you can think of there as well. And it was every single award because, say, it was just such a lovable, lovely site that people love working on because they know we appreciated them. But we don't own a lot of other sites when. So, you know, the safety guys come in. I've done a video once and said, like, if you hear Airhorn sound once, it means the safety guy is going to be here coming in ten minutes. So make sure you stop work and make sure the area is safe and put your PPE on and two glasses. It's all safe to carry on working, but that's what some of the sites are like. But we need to sort of improve that. We need to stop ticking the boxes and safety matters when safety inspections due.
Jacob Austin (00:41:17) - Mhm.
Mike Turlin (00:41:18) - Yes.
Jacob Austin (00:41:18) - And that is doing it for safety sake isn't it. Or for the sake of the inspector, rather than doing it to for the right reasons, if we want everybody that comes to work on it, whatever day it is to go home to their family safe, at the end of the day, that should be the real priority, isn't it? Yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:41:35) - I've actually got a sign. I think it's on all their sites now. It actually of whatever happens on this site today, we want you to go home safe, which we should have that sort of signage on every site really to sort of say, we want you to go home safely. It's not all about sort of you cutting corners during the day and everything like that and things like that, because when they stop cutting corners and stop ticking boxes, because that's what we've done. So, so long now or so many companies are still doing it out there. Even like having mental health, first aid is it's like we've ticked the box now we've got a mental health first. Later on the company, we can tick that box. Now we look good in the industry now, but who actually looks after that mental health first either. But are we doing are we doing enough? No we're not, we're not. We need to do so much more out in the industry to show, obviously look after the workers, not just a mental health first data to tick a box.
Mike Turlin (00:42:25) - We need to actually make sure their canteens are really nice, clean. The toilets are really clean all the time.
Jacob Austin (00:42:32) - Um.
Jacob Austin (00:42:33) - Those things do make a difference.
Jacob Austin (00:42:34) - Yeah, yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:42:36) - And it's funny because when you, when you go into a site where everything's working well and there's a good atmosphere and people are enjoying it there, it you sort of you get the feeling that progress is happening, but you're not necessarily seeing the same volume of workers that you might do on a, on a different site where there's been problems or delays or issues. And it's like, so fostering the good environment makes the project better, but it makes. More efficient for the people working on it. They want to go there. They want to deliver. And the companies get more out of less. For the sake of investing in the right things.
Mike Turlin (00:43:16) - Which like first impression, isn't it? It's like first impression of anything. It's obviously what you imagine. You go to site and there's no pedestrian walkway or whatever, and there's like piles of rubbish everywhere and stuff like that.
Mike Turlin (00:43:27) - And you go into the site office and it's full of tins of paint and some bricks, samples, tile samples, and there's loads of other plant underneath the desk and stuff like that. And you think, hmm, okay, this doesn't give the right impression that obviously it's a proper managed site and stuff like that. And then you go into the toilets or whatever, and it's a mess and there's no paper towels or whatever. You go into the canteen and you open the microwave and it's all bits in the microwave. Obviously no one's looking after it, cleaning it, the sides are all just messy and stuff like that. The drawing room is full of bricklayers tools because usually they're the last ones that actually work and the last ones to go. If we can actually change that, you imagine, obviously go into the site and you see you walk up to the gates and it's all probably signposts. Some of the signage obviously needs to change on the construction site because it's just too much. It's just when you go to if you was a new person to site, you actually walk, there you go.
Mike Turlin (00:44:23) - There's not so much to read, but I think if we actually have proper walkways where, you know, obviously the safe and you go into the office and it's immaculately clean, everything just looks right. The canteen is spotless and it's safe. There's no smoking area or whatever have you to go. I think if we can improve all that with lots of sites, obviously I say like Cala homes are doing a great job of seeing some of the stuff that they do on LinkedIn and obviously the nice setup that they've got, but we need other sites to follow in things like that because we need some standards sort of set up that they have and say, this is what our set up is and other companies follow.
Jacob Austin (00:45:01) - Um, yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:45:02) - Because I say it's the first impression you go there and then say, then when you want, when you go to your workplace, you've got to walk proper walkway to walk to. I know obviously it all comes down to cost because that comes down to how much it tries to screw you to how much you got to spend.
Mike Turlin (00:45:15) - But at the end of the day, it's got to be by looking after the workers. You end up with better on programme and the guys feel good. They're actually going to do more for you. If you think, Mike, I should say to me, say Mike, I say to him like, I need you to get that done today. Is there any way you can stay a bit longer and just get that finished? And they'll do it because they care about obviously you getting the job done and obviously meeting targets and stuff like that. But if you didn't look after, I.
Jacob Austin (00:45:40) - Say reciprocal isn't it.
Jacob Austin (00:45:42) - It's reciprocal. So you've looked after them, you've created the right working environment and you've created somewhere where they want to get things done. So then yeah, on the flip side of that, when when you need things to happen, they are more willing to make that happen. And it does. It starts with that first impression. And that sort of creates the the bar sets the bar in the mind that.
Jacob Austin (00:46:06) - All right. Everything's tidy. I need to keep my bit tidy. I can't leave it. Yeah. Roof tiles all over the scaffold or. Yeah, yeah, brick offcuts all over the place or. Yeah. Whatever. Bits of timber that get left behind. That's right. Yeah. Prune all over the back gardens of the plot and the likes.
Jacob Austin (00:46:24) - That's right. Because they could throw.
Mike Turlin (00:46:25) - Them off the scaffold. Yeah. Because obviously a lot of times they get left up there and obviously then the other trade comes behind and think, well I ain't taking this down, throw it off or bomb it, or they leave it to one side and try to work around it, which is trait obviously need to clear up behind themselves a bit more. But that comes down to educating them and having talks and saying, look, you've got two choices. We charge you, will you do it? So and obviously the subject comes from trustees don't want to be charged for clean up there. Somebody else clean up their rubbish because it costs them a lot more money than actually clean up themselves.
Jacob Austin (00:46:57) - Absolutely. Yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:46:58) - But yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:46:59) - Definitely on the same page with you on that one.
Jacob Austin (00:47:02) - Yeah.
Jacob Austin (00:47:02) - Yeah yeah.
Mike Turlin (00:47:03) - But I think I say they say I love the industry. I say that's what I do. I'm still in it now at 65. But and that's why I'm trying to sort of like because the other thing I was looking at as well was obviously like what I do with Construction Buddies is doing mental health talks all over the UK. Have got some really nice one coming up, but also trying to look at what way we can actually help the industry, like with site inductions, because obviously there are a lot of the big sites and the length of time it takes to do a site induction every day and amount of new trades you got. Whether we actually I was looking at doing site specific video inductions, we're actually going to site and actually do a video and, and then give that to the site manager or project manager and he just gets the person to sit down, or he actually sends that to the subcontractor to watch before they come.
Mike Turlin (00:47:45) - And it goes through all the walkways, the toilets, the canteen goes for all the regulations of signing the induction sign in their rooms and risk assessments, anything else. But it's all about obviously trying to save the company time. Um, for our project, obviously the thousands of pounds it costs, obviously doing the induction. So obviously with the site manager's time, which obviously is quite important because the more time you can concentrate on quality out on site and obviously getting the site running properly and obviously saving time, doing the inductions, obviously you've got to be a plus.
Jacob Austin (00:48:17) - So yeah, but it's all.
Mike Turlin (00:48:18) - About trying to improve the industry. So that's what.
Jacob Austin (00:48:21) - I so you've mentioned.
Jacob Austin (00:48:22) - A few sort of resources and sites that you are involved with. If people wanted to look those up, where would they go to visit you?
Jacob Austin (00:48:30) - Well, I've got a website called Construction buddies.uk.
Mike Turlin (00:48:34) - I've got another one called Bentley Mental Health, and now I've just got one that's going to be launched soon, which is called maser.
Mike Turlin (00:48:40) - Us. And that's all about say is getting people to talk. And then I'll be doing it gives a list of stuff that I'm doing out there obviously like suicide awareness. Which is with the Ollie Foundation to help support that. And obviously donations will be going to that. Any donations that anyone makes on any of the websites will be going to the Ollie Foundation to suicide prevention, and obviously they do suicide prevention courses. And so that's what my websites are. And then Bentley Mental Health. So it's all about uh, trying to cover every sort of industry, not just the construction industry. Yeah. I just want everyone to know out there, there is sort of like someone they can talk to and there is help out there for them. Obviously, I get I've got no one backing me. There's no companies backing me at the moment. Everything I do, I pay for myself. A lot of times at the moment I'm doing all three talks, which obviously that needs to soon start changing because obviously I need to start earning some money because recently I walked off a construction site because it just wasn't safe enough and no one seemed to be interested in that.
Mike Turlin (00:49:40) - And that's why I put myself out of work by doing that. So that's why I need to start charging soon for doing mental health talks and everything else that I'm trying to do.
Jacob Austin (00:49:49) - Certainly. Yeah, right. Brilliant. Well, I think it's really important, really good work that you're doing. Like and the best of luck with where that goes in the future. I hope it becomes a real successfully and it becomes your paycheck as well as your passion, which it clearly is.
Mike Turlin (00:50:07) - Oh, definitely is my passion. So I don't think you get anyone more passionate about trying to save lives in construction than I have. Um, because I say it's it's a great industry and it's a and it's been great working it for the last 50 years. But I say we just need to help the new, new, younger generation to be able to come into it and also help the older generation to stay in it. And that's what it's all about for me.
Jacob Austin (00:50:32) - So that concluded my chat with Mike. Here's one of the diamonds of the industry.
Jacob Austin (00:50:36) - I was incredibly moved by the story that he shared with me, and I do encourage you to reach out to Mike via the websites he's mentioned. He's also very active on LinkedIn at Mike Turlin. Do give him a follow and your support as he tries to improve the industry for the better. So I hope you've enjoyed today's show. My mission is to help the million SME contractors working within our industry. If you know somebody that would benefit from hearing today's message, please do pass on the show to them and you can find us at www.QS.Zone. We're also on all your favourite socials @QS.zone. Thanks again. I've been Jacob Austin, you've been awesome.
